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Forum Home > British India > NGC and PCGS slab distributions

cranko
Limited Member
Posts: 113

My first post, this is all written from my experience, and data available. your experience may vary. i'm a numbers guy. so I recently ran a study on distributions of "British India" from both NGC (Florida) and PCGS (Cailfornia) grading services just to appease my curiosity, and knowledge. i used only these two grading services because quite frankly all the other ones suck. both companies are based in the United States as some of you may know some of you may not. This distribution does not include Princely States, Madras, ect...but does include "proof" and "restrike issues". this was all copper, gold, silver, nickel, ect... Keep in mind that I excluded almost the entire 1936 1/4 anna coin distribution at PCGS since there are about 269 graded for some unique reason. this was based on 5002 "slabs" or "coin holders". again keep in mind there may be a slight variance because of my personal error(s) or some unknown reason(s). i used only grades "MS" (meaning "Mint State as some of you may know some of you may not know) 61,62,63,64,65,66,67, and 68. keep in mind that grading is subjective but from my experience NGC is the best/fairest. PCGS from my experience grades "looser", but NGC grades tighter/accurate. all from my experience, I use NGC 99.99% of the time, and yes I have a "bias" towards NGC. for example. you could get a 64 from NGC. break the slab, and send it in to PCGS, and possibly get a 65! but, the coin is still the same coin. so. again it's subjective. back to the distributions...89% of "British India" coins are in NGC "slabs", and 11% of the distribution are housed in PCGS "coin holders". so: 89% NGC and 11% PCGS

the median grade one should expect is an MS 63, and even MS 63 for certain series is an unbelievable grade, and some series standard. but those findings are based on you or I buying Uncirculated coins. so this is a cumulative study. you may view the chart which at the left is in 75 slab increments at the left, and the total coins for each grade correspondingly at the bottom of the chart. look at how the grades drop off after ms 63, and it gets tougher and tougher the higher the expectation. for example let's compare "Barber Half Dollars (minted from 1892-1915 in the United States)" and "Rupees" minted from 1911-1922. i used this coin because they are near the same size, weight, almost same era, and from PCGS because the distribution comprehensive summary. it was convenient. if you tell a USA collector of USA coins that you have an MS 64 1 Rupee coin. they may not be that impressed from a grade standpoint. an MS 64 in Barber Half Dollar series the median grade whereas in British India the median grade is an MS 63. but there are many factors involved with making those types of comparisons. this is just an example. coins from India are tougher to get in high grades because of a number of factors. the list is endless. but, as long as you enjoy collecting. who cares!


[Edit: Picture Inserted]

December 10, 2011 at 12:27 PM Flag Quote & Reply

broken compass
Limited Member
Posts: 230

Welcome to the forum Sanjay! The forum would be much richer with your extensive knowledge of Indian coins and experience slabbing.

For the same reasons, I use NGC. Besides, I think NGC has cooler looking slabs too. 

Very nice analysis with grade distributions! I did try to compare the distribution of Indian rupees grades with American Morgan's and was surprised to see the charts deviate drastically. The sample space of Indian coins were way smaller but it still didn't have grades as high as Morgans considering people in the US sent only the best of Indian coins in for grading.

May be someone sent a dozen rolls of 1936 1/4 rupees and made a Bulk grading request at $12 a pop ;)



December 12, 2011 at 1:14 AM Flag Quote & Reply

cranko
Limited Member
Posts: 113

thank you kindly Suraj for your kindest comments. i have some knowledge, and will share what i can with all of you. i didn't use Morgan's because of the size. i thought a similar size coin may be more appropriate for now. i posted some pictures of my best rupee in my opinion in my album. i wasn't sure how to put the pictures in with everbody elses pictures. feel free to moe them over, and let me know how to post them my self so I know as well.

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Sanjay C. Gandhi

December 12, 2011 at 3:50 AM Flag Quote & Reply

broken compass
Limited Member
Posts: 230

I usually add pictures to my auctiva image hosting space and link them to my posts here.

Here is a very nice post written by Rony about adding pictures to posts.

http://www.indiacoinnews.com/apps/forums/topics/show/3252670-how-to-post-pictures


December 12, 2011 at 11:47 AM Flag Quote & Reply

cranko
Limited Member
Posts: 113

broken compass at December 12, 2011 at 11:47 AM

I usually add pictures to my auctiva image hosting space and link them to my posts here.

Here is a very nice post written by Rony about adding pictures to posts.

http://www.indiacoinnews.com/apps/forums/topics/show/3252670-how-to-post-pictures


thanks for the info.

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Sanjay C. Gandhi

December 12, 2011 at 11:50 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Harry
Limited Member
Posts: 43

Hello Sanjay! Welcome to the ICN forum. The information you provided us is truly valuable so thanks for this. It will be very interested to see the distribution broken down between 1 Rupee (which is the most popular), 1/2 Rupee and 1/4 Rupee. If you can do this it will be very valuable to us.

 

Also, I would like to add that for US coins PCGS has a better recognition/reputation than NGC however, NGC has taken the lead in non-US coins as the main grading company. A dealer told me the NGC in recent years have become a lot more conservative in their grading, I am assuming this is because they want to gain the public's respect and regain some market share. Having said this, I must say that my experience with NGC is fairly limited and I have never dealt with PCGS directly.

 

I was surprised to see 25% is MS64, I expected it to be less than that especially for 1 Rupee and 1/2 Rupee. I rarely see them. Also why is it that none of them give the grade of MS60?

 

December 12, 2011 at 12:37 PM Flag Quote & Reply

broken compass
Limited Member
Posts: 230

Regarding the PCGS vs NGC argument. I have heard many people have very conflicting opinions about it. I've heard that PCGS has been very strict grading world coins and I've noticed some BI coins graded by PCGS secure Plus that were a grade lower than the NGC equivalent even though they had better eye appeal and less mint marks. Also NGC is the only TPG that grades ancients which gives NGC a lot of knowledge about non US coins in general. Even then, NGC has made plenty of mistakes in attribution. They seem to not be able to recognize mint marks correctly and recently they even totally mis attributed my Bengal rupee as something completely different. I think if these TPG's want to be taken seriously, they surely need to improve their world coin credentials and stop making mistakes like these. Most world coin people I know have their coins in the raw unless they want to sell it.

December 12, 2011 at 2:14 PM Flag Quote & Reply

cranko
Limited Member
Posts: 113

Harry at December 12, 2011 at 12:37 PM

Hello Sanjay! Welcome to the ICN forum. The information you provided us is truly valuable so thanks for this. It will be very interested to see the distribution broken down between 1 Rupee (which is the most popular), 1/2 Rupee and 1/4 Rupee. If you can do this it will be very valuable to us.

 

Also, I would like to add that for US coins PCGS has a better recognition/reputation than NGC however, NGC has taken the lead in non-US coins as the main grading company. A dealer told me the NGC in recent years have become a lot more conservative in their grading, I am assuming this is because they want to gain the public's respect and regain some market share. Having said this, I must say that my experience with NGC is fairly limited and I have never dealt with PCGS directly.

 

I was surprised to see 25% is MS64, I expected it to be less than that especially for 1 Rupee and 1/2 Rupee. I rarely see them. Also why is it that none of them give the grade of MS60?

 

Hello Harry. Thank you kindly for the welcome, and you are welcome for the information. It took me 20+ hours to put this data together. There is data out there for each of these series but I don't have the time right now. But will work on it. Maybe somebody else could take one of the other series of denominations.

PCGS is the leader in USA coins for sure.

MS 64 in silver from my experience is a tough grade to get depending on the denomination. There could be skewed data as well if there is one denomination that a bunch were sent in to be graded. For George the 5th. Its a damn good grade from my experience, and I say that beacause there are so many graded below that grade. That smooth surface too was open season for bag marks, and scratches galore. Some are struck very poor as well. Most of what is graded are 1 Rupee coins beacuase in the past they had the most silver content is what I believe. Maybe because it's crown, and dealers/collectors like big coins. Nobody wanted to touch the smaller denominations unless you were an advanced collector, and knew these coins were scarcer than big brother. If you look at some of the series for example 1922: there is one MS 66, one MS 65, four 64's, 17 63's, 13 62's, and 2 61's. I left out 60 because nobody ever gets a 60. Getting a 60 is like getting a 65..hahahaha.. But this strike for the series or die preparation was not so good from my experience. this is speculation on my behalf, but the mintage was pretty low, and nobody really knows the answer. I have yet to see a blazing gem 1922 one Rupee coin. It could vary for each year or who knows!  

    

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Sanjay C. Gandhi

December 12, 2011 at 6:02 PM Flag Quote & Reply

cranko
Limited Member
Posts: 113

Somebody that has a raw coin(s) could very easily say that "I have that in MS 65", and they may. More than likely they may not. Until somebody looks at the surface with a loop, and they get the coin graded which is subjective as we know. They may never know. I've bought coins from very reputable dealers, and months later I discover they were cleaned but had remarkable eye appeal. The losses can add up fast, and I can attest to that. Who's fault is that? Only mine, and there is nobody else to blame. I made the decision, and I get to enjoy it. Whether good or bad.  

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Sanjay C. Gandhi

December 12, 2011 at 6:07 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Harry
Limited Member
Posts: 43

Hi Sanjay,

Thanks for your valuable comments. I don’t mind crunching the numbers, however, I don’t have access to PCGS census. I do have access to NGC. I was able to get a similar graph for the 1/4 Rupee British India from 1862 to 1947 (MS60-MS67) none graded higher than MS67.

 

Grade       Total           Percent

MS67             1           0.28%

MS66             9           2.51%

MS65           38          10.58%

MS64            76         21.17%

MS63          127         35.38%

MS62            83         23.12%

MS61            24           6.69%

MS60               1          0.28%

Total 359

 

It took me < 5 mins, I just cut and paste the data into excel and used excel to generate the totals and plot the graph.

 

Some interesting facts only one graded MS67 and that’s a 1862C 1/4 Rupee. Like your finding the for the full data of British India coins MS63 seems to be the mean for 1/4 Rupee (for NGC at least).

 

December 13, 2011 at 2:21 PM Flag Quote & Reply

cranko
Limited Member
Posts: 113

Harry at December 13, 2011 at 2:21 PM

Hi Sanjay,

Thanks for your valuable comments. I don’t mind crunching the numbers, however, I don’t have access to PCGS census. I do have access to NGC. I was able to get a similar graph for the 1/4 Rupee British India from 1862 to 1947 (MS60-MS67) none graded higher than MS67.

 

Grade       Total           Percent

MS67             1           0.28%

MS66             9           2.51%

MS65           38          10.58%

MS64            76         21.17%

MS63          127         35.38%

MS62            83         23.12%

MS61            24           6.69%

MS60               1          0.28%

Total 359

 

It took me < 5 mins, I just cut and paste the data into excel and used excel to generate the totals and plot the graph.

 

Some interesting facts only one graded MS67 and that’s a 1862C 1/4 Rupee. Like your finding the for the full data of British India coins MS63 seems to be the mean for 1/4 Rupee (for NGC at least).

 

that's awesome. i did it the old fashoned way. by hand...haha

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Sanjay C. Gandhi

December 13, 2011 at 3:51 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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